The Echoes of a Daughter's Memory Fueling the Fight for Awareness

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{ Helvetica;-----BEGIN THE ECHOES OF A DAUGHTER'S MEMORY FUELING THE FIGHT FOR AWARENESS-----

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Speaker 1>

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0>02 Hey Dad, it's me again. I'm calling you back. I figured out the answer to my own question because I finished up that first little tiny memory card and then took it out and put it back in and the pictures are still there. Anyway, just wanted to also thank you for everything this weekend. It's our graduation day and the gift the camera is awesome. It's perfect. Believe it or not, I already figured out how to take some pictures and have been taking them since yesterday, which I can hopefully download later this evening and send to you. Anyway, thank you very much and I will hopefully talk to you soon. I'm not sure if you talked to Garvey and Poppy regarding the fact that I spoke to them, but maybe you have Talk to you later, dad. Love you Bye. Hey Dad, it's Kristen.

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Speaker 1>

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0>49 I got your message. It is about 1020 on Wednesday morning and I'm at the new apartment. It's beautiful, there's a lot of stuff to be put away and a lot of stuff to be done. But I did get your message from last night and obviously things are a little hectic. I to be done, but I did get your message from last night and obviously things were a little hectic, like I was really tired and trying to put stuff away and whatnot. Moving is quite an adventure, um, but the movers were great and everything went really really well. Nothing got broken. They packed everything like wrapped in paper in boxes, which is crazy Like they did a really good job. So, um, can you call back when you get there, but I wanted to thank you for helping me out, putting that money in there so that I can pay all of my rent today and still be able to live and pay the bills that are going to come from activating phone and internet and whatnot. I love you. I guess you're at work. I'll talk to you later. Bye.

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Speaker 2>

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1>46 What if that was the last thing you heard from one of your loved ones? That's today's conversation. Welcome back to Narrowing the Divide. I'm your host, dan Warheide, and I'm really excited about today's conversation. I'm really excited about today's conversation. I have a guest I think is probably one of the I don't even know how to frame that correctly but my guest today is saving lives. How about that?

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Speaker 2>

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2>25 Before I get into that, I want to just frame this conversation a little bit and how this took place, because in the process of scheduling with today's guest, I had some insights around my own work as a result of working to bring him on Now. We had previously scheduled our call and then we had a conversation about does it make sense? So I was thinking about my audience. I was thinking about who it is I want to be speaking with and the type of content that I wanted to bring to them. One of the things I struggled with for the last several years in working towards growing or building my own business has been around listening to other people's advice. You can consume all kinds of advice out there about what's the best way to structure your podcast, for example. Since this is a podcast and we had that conversation I said my guest today's name is Bill Mitchell, and we had a phone call where I said I'm not sure how to frame this conversation to make it make sense for my audience my audience being mostly entrepreneurs and coaches and then I had that insight about wow, what is it that I struggled with all this time? So one of the things I struggled with was how to communicate authentically my own passions, the things that I stand for and the things that I stand against and sell myself. And that's where it all got jumbled and confused. But then the realization came to me that I want to be authentic. I want to teach people how they, too, can be authentic. And when I recognized my own feelings about today's guest and the conversation that you're about to hear, I knew I had to deliver this message, because I spent 13 years as a sexual assault victim advocate in the military and I am personally involved in standing against things related to sexual assault, violence and dating. And man, today's guest has just a wealth of intimate experience that I think you are going to benefit from and again, can possibly save someone's life. In fact, I'll let him share when he comes on, but Bill shared a text with me not long ago that just it brought a tremendous flow of emotion for me in the work that he's doing. So I can't wait to get to that. Before we do, I want to read you the submission for his guest profile and you can see this for yourself Dan W Dot us and look at this episode notes or wherever you're finding your episode or or this podcast, you can look at the show notes and it will have a link for his guest profile. So he goes on to say hi, I'm Bill Mitchell.

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Speaker 2>

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5>36 On June 3rd 2005., my daughter, kristen, was murdered by her ex-boyfriend in her apartment in Kanshakan, pa. 20 days prior, our family attended Kristen's graduation from St Joseph's University. It was also the last time we saw her alive. Since those dark days, I have passionately spoken out in the need for awareness and education about the warning signs and dangerous consequences of dating violence. I have delivered over 200 speeches before high schools, colleges, law enforcement assemblies and private companies. I have been interviewed on TV, radio, podcasts and webinars.

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Speaker 2>

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6>15 In 2020, I published the when Dating Hurts book. You can find that book on Amazon. It is a memoir that details Kristen's murder and my family's journey toward healing through helping others. This memoir contains life-saving information on how to detect an unhealthy relationship and how to be safe when Dating Hurts is available on Amazon in paperback, ebook and audiobook. I launched my podcast, also entitled when Dating Hurts in 2021. With this podcast, I interviewed domestic violence leaders, law enforcement professionals, parents of murdered children and survivors, both female and male. I feel the loss of my daughter conferred upon me a solemn responsibility to use my hard-earned insights about dating and domestic violence to inform and save lives. I am willing to speak about any aspect of what happened since 2005. You can find more information about Bill at winddatinghurtscom and you can contact him directly billmitchelldv at outlook com. Bill, thank you so much for agreeing to join me and for helping me think through and having those insights for myself.

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Speaker 3>

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7>33 And thank you very much. I really enjoyed our conversation we had a couple of weeks back and, knowing what your show is about, I thought, well, we had a great conversation. I probably won't be on your show because it didn't seem to make sense. And then, in the meantime, you've made it make sense, and so I'm glad we're doing this today. I think it's going to be very helpful because no matter what career path you take, no matter what level you're working at whether you're a supervisor, manager, worker, whatever you are chances are you have a life and chances are you have family members, and chances are there's domestic violence that you're aware of or you're not aware of. That's right nearby, so it's. It is appropriate.

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Speaker 2>

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8>17 Well, it's definitely my pleasure and, again, something that ties back to something, it ties into my passions and and that, when I reframed that way of thinking to to say you know, this is my podcast number one, and number two is this is a conversation I know is changing lives. That's what I felt when I, when we had our phone call Uh, and that's sort of what I've just shared about uh. You know, there's a lot more I could go into on that, but you're absolutely right, it doesn't matter where we are in our lives, our work, um, chances are there is someone there whose life could be impacted by a conversation like this. So I'm all about bringing authentic and real uh into people's purview, so to speak. So, with that, I know we briefly discussed before we got started where we might like to start, and can you start, bill, by just taking us back to that day of graduation.

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Speaker 3>

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9>20 Yes, Dan. So you know, it's kind of like a tale of two cities, the best of times, the worst of times, packed together within three weeks. May of 2005,. You mentioned this earlier when you kind of went through the bio part.

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Speaker 3>

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9>37 But May of 2005, at St Joseph's University, my daughter was graduating, having done four years in the business school and coming out with food marketing as her direction, and she had already won a job with General Mills, locally this is around, again around Philadelphia and so she had a job. She would be starting in about six weeks or so, but on that particular day my wife, my son and I drove from the Baltimore area about 125 miles to where Kristen was, and upon seeing her, even before she had on the graduation gown, she had a dress on and I remember thinking this is no high school kid anymore. You know, this is not even just a college student, this is a woman, you know, and I'd never thought of her or seen her looking like a real grown up. You know, we pulled up in our car, she came out and it's like, oh my God. You know, I almost didn't recognize her. It just seemed like she. She just grew up so much in a big hurry there. But I can tell you from her standpoint she never seemed more proud, more happy, more radiant and more with it and just all set to go get a real job at a real place, as a sales associate, in this case with General Mills, which is the job everybody in food service marketing wanted. That one job. She won it. She won it and I think it was smart as much as charm, honestly.

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Speaker 3>

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11>08 So the graduation takes place under a great big, huge white tent and then afterwards we met up with one of her close college friends and this guy who we had heard very little about, who was a boyfriend of about four or five months, and in the book and now I'll call him nick, it's not his real name. I never use his real name, yeah, um, I just don't. So, of course, if you google it, you'll get it immediately. But anyway, my immediate impression upon meeting him when I met him, looked him in the eye and shook his hand was wow, I'd never want to tangle with this guy. I'd never want to get into a fight with this guy. I have never, ever in my life, met someone who I my first impression was fighting this person. He hadn't even done anything, I mean, just walked up, hi, Mr Mitchell, shake hands, this kind of thing. That's the truth. That's what I felt Now that graduation day, as it turns out, was the first time I ever met him and it was the last time I ever saw my daughter alive. And that's because, 20 days later, back in the Baltimore area, Kristen's still up there. But we're down here. You know, I'm back at work.

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Speaker 3>

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12>27 I worked in advertising and it was a Friday, Although it was June 3rd 2005,. It was rainy. It was for the most part dark, especially as we get into the evening, it's just kind of a nasty day. And I got a call from local detectives saying we need to meet with you. We'll meet you at your home.

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Speaker 3>

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12>46 At that time I had just left a restaurant. I was driving towards my home, but I had a ways to go, and it's raining like crazy. The wipers are going like crazy. And also at home, my wife and son were not there. They had spent the afternoon and into the evening at a high school graduation party for some friends of ours. So nobody was home for really the whole afternoon when, I guess then that's when police detectives were banging on the door.

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Speaker 3>

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13>16 They wanted to meet at the door and I wasn't sure. The person on the phone calling me was a woman who said she was a police lieutenant, detective Vicki Schaefer, and wanted to meet me at the house. And I just thought this is a lot to process. I have police, I have a detective, I have a woman saying she's a detective. This may seem really unfair, but when I think of detectives I picture a guy as much as if I said nurse, you might picture a woman. You know, you just go there. Obviously it doesn't always work that way, but anyhow, I'm thinking this lady claims she's a detective and she wants to meet at my front door. I don't think so, and so you can't help under those circumstances, thinking why would a detective want to meet me? You know, did I do something? Am I about to be arrested? Did something happen on my street? They think I might have some knowledge at all. Yeah so.

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Speaker 3>

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14>07 I picked a grocery store and that's where we met, and she pulled up in her silver Honda and she had a guy with her who was huge, in a suit he turned out to be another detective and then a dark blue car guess a nissan, ultima or something pulled up. Behind them, two women got out who looked rather dour, who were wearing dark blue suits, who turned out to be bereavement counselors. I guess the idea is, when I got the, got the horrible news, they thought I'd collapse or something and they sit me up or something. So anyway, I got the words that no parent ever wants to hear, which is, I regret to inform you that today your daughter, kristen, was murdered by her boyfriend. Wow, and that's it. And when I heard it, my initial reaction was actually probably looked rather stoical. You know, it's just. I stood there and I thought about it and I immediately jumped to. I know, kristen, I know what murder is, I know what death is, I mean it's over. I mean just like that. Everything was so beautiful and then this door slams and that's it, and I'm the only one right now in my family who knows it. I tag you're it. You know it's me now.

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Speaker 3>

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15>30 So anyway, they put me on the phone with the detective who was in the Philadelphia area and told me what they knew at that time. And we talked that all through. I took notes and in the midst of this I called my wife and I said that I'd actually called her when I first got the call from detectives, because I was saying I'm not sure what this is about. I thought I'd better let you know that there are detectives who want to meet with me about something. And I'm going to meet at a giant store, a giant grocery store, it's called. And she said is this about Kristen? And I said why would it be about Kristen? We're 125 miles from Kristen. I don't think it has anything to do with Kristen.

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Speaker 3>

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16>10 It was kind of bothered me that she would even like why would you think that? Yeah, and I can only write that off to a mother's intuition. And I said look, why don't you do this? Why don't you come home and we'll talk? I don't know why, because it's not the way my wife would normally act. Normally she'd say well, what's it about? What's going on? What are you going to tell me? And she didn't. And she really gave me a break because I didn't have a path out of that. The only thing I said to her was it's raining, it's dark. Why don't you let David drive? I figured younger eyes, he's going to be a lot more calm. You know, I don't need, I don't need this day to get compounded, you know, with something else.

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Speaker 3>

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16>55 Also my parents show up and then told them in our family room what was going on. So at that point your life, you know, is on a whole different trajectory. It will never really look anything like it used to look. And that evening, after we had the discussion and cried a lot and talked about what we needed to do starting tomorrow morning, which is interview funeral homes and walk cemetery plots, you know, and see what that was all about. You know where are we going to actually bury her, which is crazy when you think about 24 hours before you never would have thought of such a nightmare.

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Speaker 3>

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17>36 The next day came up and it was as different as can be. From that rainy Friday, it was a very hot, sunny Saturday. So it was miserable walking around these lots and trying to figure out things. I mean, you're getting a headache, it was so hot. But we did find a good place and picked it and then interviewed funeral homes and only one of them had a funeral director who really seemed to embrace us the right way and it was just very reasonable.

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Speaker 3>

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18>02 And we said look, you know. He said you know, we have several rooms. Where do you think you'd like to go? It's like well, how many people do they hold. And we went through that and he said look, let me tell you this, I'm not trying to upsell you, but you're going to want the largest room because when this gets out about somebody like that, a 21 year old, you're going to fill this place. It'll be all of our high school friends this word will go out out high school friends, our college friends, will come down from philadelphia. I guarantee you all neighbors you know, and he was right, if you fast forward a few days and it was a few days, and we didn't know how to even book this because when someone's murdered in a case like this, she was actually stabbed to death in her kitchen their body is held as evidence for a period of time they go before a medical examiner and they do whatever they do.

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Speaker 3>

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18>59 It's obviously very gruesome and the same medical examiner who examined kristin also examined nick and that's because it was determined in the write-up that he self-inflicted a lot of different wounds on his arms and his chest and even his neck, making it look like it was determination of the medical examiner that he probably tried to make it look like self-defense.

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Speaker 2>

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19>24 Yeah.

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Speaker 3>

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19>24 And he took hours to concoct a story before he spoke with police, so that didn't hold any water, anyway, so she's buried. And then the question is okay, now what? And we were in touch with police the whole time. And now we're facing, a couple months later, preliminary hearing, where you actually have him walk into the room in a courtroom and they talk about what he would possibly be charged with.

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Speaker 3>

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19>49 And the judge determines. Yes, there is a case here About a month and a half later, something called a formal arraignment, where they bring him in again and at that time they formally charge him with whatever it would be. In that case it was what was called first degree, second degree and then a number of other charges which have to do with deadly instruments and things like that. Right, it was knives and knives and balls and things.

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Speaker 2>

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20>18 Excuse me.

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Speaker 3>

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20>19 So Then it kind of like is this going into court or is this going to a plea? And the prosecution team which was an amazing prosecution team this was in Montgomery County, pennsylvania, which is a very rich county, which means they also have great people on their staffs. Okay, so it does make a difference where you are when these things happen. It wasn't Philadelphia, where they're busy, out of their minds and don't have time here. They could actually give it everything they had and they said, look, 95% of these things go to a plea. Next thing we know he wants to go into a court case. It's like, oh no, and right before that happened, the week before we find out, oh no, wait a minute, he wants to go to a plea now. So they start something that's called a continuance Right and so the case is pushed off. As it turns out, seven months later it's going to start, but in the meantime he decides to go with the plea and he pleads guilty to third-degree murder.

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Speaker 3>

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21>23 He was actually charged with first and third. I think I said first and second. He was charged with first and third. If you're convicted of first, you go to prison and you don't come out in Pennsylvania. That's it. You come out. As I said, you come out horizontally. Third, in this case usually comes with time. So he actually pled guilty to third degree. 15 to 30 years. That means he will do 15 no matter what happens. Then after that there'll be annual parole reviews. So he could get out at 15, 16, 17 on up to 30. So that, if you do the math, we've actually done at this time three parole reviews. I should say they've done that Sure, and they call in a number of people. They also interview him. It's not done at the same time. We're not in the same room with him. People always think that the guy's in the room when you're saying all these things and it's not like that. So that's kind of what's going on with him. He's still in prison right in the middle of Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 3>

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22>25 He did write. They have something called the I think it's called the Inmate Apology Bank and it's actually an opportunity for people like this to sit down and write something to people like us saying look, you know, I'm really sorry about what happened, or whatever they want to say it's an apology and I guess it's. The idea is like oh, this poor guy, you know we should forgive him and I didn't think of it that way, and he has a life too and all that. So the way that works is is he wrote well, I learned was a page and a half.

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Speaker 3>

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23>01 I've never seen it so I can't show that to you because I don't have it. Quite frankly, I don't want it, but I did learn that it was a page and a half, and the way that works is that he can write it, he can put it in the apology bank and then we're contacted. So we can either not see it and he doesn't know if we saw it or not, or we can not see it and tell him we don't want to see it, or we could see it and tell him that we don't want him to know, or that we do want him to know. There's actually four different avenues if that ain't confusing enough.

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Speaker 3>

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23>34 But anyhow, we took the first, which is A we don't want to see it, and B we don't want him to know. Now, at that point in time he'd been in prison 15 years and he wrote a total of a page and a half. So I don't care what you put on a piece of paper at that point, it doesn't add up to much, you know? I mean, if you wrote just a little bit every day, you'd have a book, right?

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Speaker 2>

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23>56 Yeah, anyway, I can't imagine.

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Speaker 3>

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23>58 So, in terms of remorse and forgive me and don't say bad things about me when the review comes, you know, forget it and uh, and no, I haven't forgiven him. If anybody's listening and thinking, gee whiz, I wonder if they. No, I don't see that coming in the beginning.

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Speaker 3>

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24>20 I wondered if I, if it was possible um, nobody in this house has really gotten to that place, and and the way I kind of serve that up is I feel like that's between him and his maker, and leave me out of it. You know, I've got my own life, he's got his life, which he's messed up pretty well, and so, anyway, he can pray his way into heaven or wherever he thinks he might be heading. Now, one of the things that really was important in our case not everybody does this is we were very fortunate because when the next school year started now, she was killed in June and finally August and September. Life goes on.

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Speaker 3>

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25>02 People are back in school, and someone decided they wanted to do a memorial service for her and invite the student population, if they wanted to, to take a walk around the campus with candles and say some prayers. And it is St Joseph's University, so there is a bit of a religious spin to it, although it's not rubbed in anybody's face. And so we went and participated and we were told if we wanted to speak at that, that we could. So I said, well, I definitely want to speak, and my son, who was 17 at the time, said he did, and my wife said she did, which surprised me because she's not a super public type of person. She's very private. Right.

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Speaker 3>

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25>42 And I thought that even if she wrote it, I don't know, if she could deliver it.

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Speaker 3>

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25>45 But we all did and I created a short video to start things off. So we're there. That night they had some people from washington who are with different departments in washington to get up and talk about dating and domestic violence in this country at this time and the numbers, and you know it was it's. It's one of those things that it's kind of an emotional evening and someone gets up and they're reciting facts and figures and it kind of works against people being interested. To tell you the truth, it kind of gets old fast.

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Speaker 3>

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26>15 You start to mentally leave the room. And this woman was supposed to do 10 or 15 minutes. She did 45. And I'm squirming because I thought this is a school night for these kids. When she finishes, this place is going to clear out. It's like we're trying to get up there on that stage. It was in a chapel, but we're trying to get up there. So the moment that she was done, man, I bounced up onto that stage. I shoved that video in there, boom, it hit play cranked that volume up and it's like nobody left. And then, next thing, you know, my wife's up there delivering. It was great.

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Speaker 3>

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26>56 When she was speaking, that place was quiet. I mean, it sounded like she was in there by herself. And when she got off, david got up and he did his thing and we had not heard each other's little presentation speeches. You know we we decided here at the house we would write them but never share them.

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Speaker 3>

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27>14 And then I got up when it was all said and done, there were a number of things that I heard besides getting a lot of hugs and things, but a lot of things I heard that showed me there was real power in people like us going public with this and beginning to understand why these things happen. You know, why does someone do this? When does somebody do this? What is the backstory? You know, how would you know this was coming your way? How would you get out of the way of something like this? I mean, there were all these things that I didn't know, any of this, and I actually was terrified anybody would come up and at the end of the speech ask me questions, because it'd be like I don't know I mean it?

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Speaker 3>

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27>58 happened four or five months ago, but I didn't because my daughter got killed. It wasn't like I was infused with all this wisdom and knowledge and experience. It wasn't like I was infused with all this wisdom and knowledge and experience. So I put a big rush on getting together with domestic violence counselors and domestic violence agency directors and saying walk me through all this stuff, Educate me. And we also had a foundation that started up a couple of years later and a run walk. So I was around all these people who really knew this subject, which I didn't at that time. I'm getting, believe me, I know it now. I imagine.

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Speaker 3>

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28>35 So one of the things that was so great was on the heels of that memorial service and speaking. We managed to get more and more speaking engagements and one of the real crescendos was actually almost at the two-year mark when I was asked to speak at Raven Stadium, baltimore, raven Stadium, m&t Bank before almost a thousand people at a luncheon and I only had like a seven-minute part, but again, you know it was a luncheon, a fundraiser, and there's almost a thousand people and they're serving lunch and you're hearing all the silverware and the glasses put down and people talking and all.

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Speaker 3>

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29>16 And then someone gets up to speak the director of that domestic violence agency gets up to speak and people are for the most part you know a little bit still talking and clinkety, clink, and you know there's still this background noise and then actually the governor of maryland's wife speaks and there's still noise and things are going on and my wife leaned over, whispered in my ear these people are so rude, you know somebody's up there trying to speak and they're still making all this noise and I said I bet they stop, I bet they stop, I bet they stop when I get up there. I got up there with my little seven minutes and that place was like a tomb, I mean, it was quiet. And it was so quiet that my first impression was something went wrong. I didn't know if there was an emergency. I didn't know if there was an emergency, I didn't know if the mic cut off, but it was that they were all listening.

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Speaker 3>

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30>39 So again, anyway, get a little choked up here. Anyway, it just meant so much to me and it's like you know, I need to do more of this stuff, I need to learn more about it, I need to do, and it's like you know, I need to do more of this stuff, I need to learn more about it, I need to do more about it. And so I really stayed on that, and at this point in time I'd probably given you know, with interviews like this, all totaled somewhere around 200.

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Speaker 2>

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31>03 Yeah.

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Speaker 3>

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31>03 Whether it's radio or podcast or TV and speeches all over the place. You know different states and different things like that, and you know different states and different things like that and you know I have a bunch of them coming up soon. The other thing that started to happen was at the 10 year mark. I started to put some articles on on LinkedIn about how to avoid a parent's worst nightmare, and the response was it wasn't huge because they didn't have a lot of people I had friended or connected with at that point in time. I mean, I had several, I probably had five or six hundred people, but what came back was so positive and meaningful to me. And then, finally, I had about 11 or 12 of these articles and someone wrote why don't you stop writing these articles and why don't you go and write the book? I hadn't thought about writing the book, so I went ahead and started writing those chapters that I wanted to write the most, for whatever reason. I mean just scenes from a story and I had to write backwards and forwards because I sort of started in the middle of the book, but I had to go all the way back to the call from detectives and go back to the graduation and the other thing that had happened at some point this is about six months after this guy went to prison because he did plead and he did go was them turning over Kristen's cell phone from that night, her computer, all these things were held as evidence for the longest time. What that also meant is I could go on her cell phone and I could see all the text messages of her last 24 hours, back and forth with this guy arguing with him, going to all caps and, and you know, leading up to him coming over to her apartment and killing her. So one thing has really led to another and so, yeah, the book came out in 2020.

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Speaker 3>

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32>55 Then I did the e-book, I did the paperback, then I did the e-book and then I thought I need to get somebody to do the audio book. I didn't picture me doing it my voice. And then I thought, well, let me go talk with some people who do voice work, right. And I thought how weird is this going to be to have a book where I did this and we did this. And then I got this call and it's somebody else. And then, when you get to the night of the murder and we're walking through that or I'm reading emails. You know that either she said or I said you know because I had some of those at the very end that I included.

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Speaker 3>

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33>34 I thought how strange is that? I mean, what delivery would I think would be the appropriate delivery of my voice? So I went ahead and I did the book myself. I did it all, I edited it all, I uploaded it all, and that actually gave me the courage to think. Well, the book is officially out in all different flavors. And then I thought I felt like I'd lost a close friend that I'd been talking with for years, which was the book. And then I thought, you know, I don't know much about doing a podcast and I know there's a lot of parts to it, but I think I'll take a crack at it. So three years ago I did that and I can tell you at this point in time we're very close to this. Yeah, so the podcast was launched in 2021.

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Speaker 3>

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34>24 And you know, these things start off. I mean, I was talking with someone the other day and I said you know, this is like message in a bottle situation. You know you go ahead and you, with the best of intentions, package something up and throw it out there and you don't know if it's going to wash up on the other side of the island or if it's going to go out and somebody in a boat is going to pick it up and actually pay attention. So my expectations were slim to none. But I can say I'm very happy to report that very soon, really within a from today, within the next three or four weeks or so, I will hit the one million downloads mark, which I.

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Speaker 3>

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35>03 I'd spoken with some other podcasters who had all kinds of big numbers like that and I thought well, you know, you guys are an exception because I know that's not going to happen. But so it's not so much an ego trip to me, it's about it's caught on. People are listening, they're telling other people you know, dan and I both know you and I both know that it's about word of mouth. Really, you're not going to get a large audience just because you're out there on. I mean, it's social media and everything else but, but but you know, people tell people.

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Speaker 3>

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35>34 So somebody who has kids might say to somebody else look, you know, I found this podcast. It's called when dating hurts and you might want to go else. Look, you know, I found this podcast. It's called when Dating Hurts and you might want to go and listen to it because there's a lot of good information and he brings on people who have survived domestic violence which is what I do the most part.

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Speaker 3>

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35>50 Now a few other things, and that is that I think it's important to give the one statistic I give, but I also the one statistic I give, but I also, once in a while, the terms about red flags and warning signs come along and they're thrown out there like, oh my God, you need to really get in touch with the warning signs, and if you don't say what they are, then it's like well, what is that?

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Speaker 3>

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36>14 Yeah, thank you, okay so you know it's just kind of vague. You know it seems like it has meaning, but if you don't know what it is, it's vague, okay. So the statistic and this is I hear this everywhere. I mean this is backed up by a lot of research and, by the way, it's again the only one I ever give One in three women will suffer serious physical violence at the hands of an intimate partner at some point in their lifetime.

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Speaker 3>

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36>42 One in three, okay, now, that's physical, that's not emotional. Emotional is much higher, but I'm talking about when you think of domestic violence. If you say that to somebody, they're probably picturing a man beating on a woman, right? I mean that's just it, right? That's where your mind goes. That's the picture that you're presented. So one in three women will suffer serious physical violence at the hand of an intimate partner, and that it typically happens between the ages of 16 and 24. My daughter is 21. Between the ages of 16 and 24, but can happen to any woman at any age.

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Speaker 3>

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37>15 So what does that mean? That means I've talked with people, before and after speeches at high schools, who are 12 years old, who've been beat on by some boyfriend, okay, and I've talked with people in their sixties who've had 40 years of being beat on by a husband before they finally finally got out of that house, got out of that place. And it's confounding. It's like like what do you need? You know, what permission do you need to get out of that place? And it's confounding. It's like what do you need? What permission do you need to get out of there? And if you were to hear those stories, you'll say, okay, now I get it, because they were so financially tied up. Maybe they were told that if you leave me, I'll kill our kid. I mean, I just spoke with someone yesterday. That's exactly what it was. You leave me and your son's going to get it. I'm telling you right now, right, I mean, imagine living under the roof with somebody who lays out on you.

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Speaker 3>

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38>07 Now let me go to the warning signs, or the red flags. The warning signs of an unhealthy relationship fit under one big umbrella and that is this it's one person exerting power and control over another person. Okay, now, I'm sure the people listening to this have been in a work environment where somebody is exerting power and control over somebody else. It doesn't necessarily have to be a manager-level person, it's just somebody's style is one that you just have to kind of bend to or kowtow to. Now these are some of the typical examples that you could find in everyday life.

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Speaker 3>

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38>47 In a relationship and let's call it a it's supposed to be a love relationship, which really isn't, but it's sent up that way. But somebody like, let's say, if your partner uses controlling or dominant behavior that eventually permeates every part of your life, now you're not going to see the bad behavior, probably not much of it, maybe not any of it on the first date or the first week, because the people who do this type of stuff they're really good and they're very crafty and they're very practiced and they're very polished, so the bad behavior doesn't start. If your first date was anything like your 30th date, you wouldn't be around for the second date. If your partner exhibits extreme jealousy or possessiveness about who you see and what you do, so it's like they keep inserting themselves or they don't really want you to see your, to see your friends or have relationships, even even with family members.

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Speaker 3>

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39>41 Sometimes the whole idea is it's all about me. It's all about me, focus on me. Someone who isolates you from your family, your friends and things you like to do yeah, you don't want to go play tennis. It's hot out there, it's a waste of time. Why don't you and I go do something and if you keep not playing tennis enough, you don't play tennis anymore, or if he talks you out of uh seeing your other family members?

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Speaker 3>

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40>07 yeah eventually they'll go like well, I guess she's with him. Uh, somebody who name calls you and puts you down about how you look or what you wear. You know that some people come up with some, some name that bothers you and you know that if you don't do what that person wants, if you don't comply, you're going to get hit with that name. Right? Somebody who constantly checks up on you with texts and phone calls. Where are you now? You said you'd be home. How come you're not home and you write back? Well, I told you I was just going to go to the mall with my friends for a couple hours. Yeah, I know, but it's three hours now. Why aren't you here? You said you'd be here. Why don't you leave? Why don't I come by and pick you up? Somebody who makes you feel that nobody else would ever want you or love you. So kind of positioning like hey, you better come along with me because, to tell you the truth, you're really not that big a prize in the world. Right and.

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Speaker 3>

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41>05 I don't see somebody else scooping you up. It's almost like they're doing you a favor. Someone who says you cannot do anything right, keeps you off balance and actually has a campaign to make you think you're crazy, that you're unhinged, which nowadays they call gaslighting. I got three more. Somebody who lies about practically everything that has ever happened or will happen, so you keep finding out. Oh, he said he'd be at that place but he couldn't have been at that place because these other people were there and he wasn't there. Somebody who just gives you this false world that you're walking around in.

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Speaker 3>

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41>45 Somebody who love bombs you. You know, you hear of love bombing now and then and I'll explain that. But somebody who love bombs you, that's basically somebody who, pretty early on, is bringing, bringing their a game. I mean, you're getting gifts. You go out on a date and the next day there's two bouquets sitting for you sitting at your desk. When you walk in, like whoa, there's a card and and and it's, it's that person you know. And and then just all these over the top words of love. Okay, it's just like, oh, my god, I've never met anybody like you in my life and you know, I'm just so fortunate and just shoveling this stuff at you. It's when it's the things you'd love to see happen, but they're coming at you like crazy.

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Speaker 2>

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42>30 Yeah.

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Speaker 3>

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42>30 You've got to scratch your head and say this doesn't seem real. Well, that's because it's not real. And then the last one is someone who speeds up every facet of the relationship and projects your future tied together. You know, I've heard stories where somebody is being called Mrs. You know, like if the guy's name is John Johnson's calling her Mrs. You know, mrs Johnson. You know. You know, what are we going to do this weekend? It's already kind of putting that on you that I do expect to be marrying you one day, you know, right.

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Speaker 3>

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42>57 So there's kind of these invisible handcuffs are coming your way and that's kind of what that stuff is all about. So the point of it is that if this is happening to you, or if this is happening to someone you care about, these are warning signs. It doesn't mean if one or two of those things happen now and then that you have to pull the alarm and run out of the building like it's on fire. It's not. It's to say to you I just went through 10 of those. That list was 10 and if you're sitting there thinking I I might have every one of those going on, or I might have seven out of 10 of those, or I might have a bunch of those going on and they happen all the time with this person, then I'd say you know what you might want to seek help, because chances are you're in a relationship that's unhealthy, that's going to get worse and it's going to get bad. These relationships typically get bad. I want to give you one other thing, which is something that I came up with some years ago that I call the template that every abuser follows. I heard enough stories and started to keep track of it and I realized it goes into about five buckets and this is how it works and I haven't seen this fail.

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Speaker 3>

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44>24 Number one is storybook romance. We kind of hinted around with the love bombing, right, storybook romance. You meet this person. They want to go to a nice place. They present themselves well, maybe they have a nice car or not, but whatever it is, it just seems like, wow, you know, we really kind of click this is great, okay, and that's all right. They could end up being wonderful, but storybook romance. And then the next thing is isolation, which we talked about a little bit. Talked about a little bit, but it's just that this person seems to always want to be with you on a one-on-one situation, doesn't really want your sister around, doesn't really want your friends around, something to be aware of, and we go to three, which is, unfortunately somebody who is.

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Speaker 3>

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45>20 There are threats of violence. Now a threat of violence could be that you're there, you've been dating for a few weeks, maybe it's three weeks into this, four weeks or so and maybe you say something and all of a sudden that person snaps around and yells at you that's a threat of violence. Somebody who slams on the brakes and you're like what's going on? What's going on? Look, I got to tell you something. When someone talks with me and says stuff like you just said, it sounds like those things I never want to hear from you, never want to hear that. My mother used to talk to me like that and you're not going to talk to me like that and you feel like you've been reprimanded by the principal.

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Speaker 3>

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45>54 Okay, that's a threat of violence. Somebody who throws something at you, somebody who does something around you that doesn't directly hit you, but it's a precursor to what could be coming next. And you start to realize, boy, I better toe the line with this person, I better do what is being hinted at, because I don't want to see the next part, which is step four, which is actual violence. I don't think that my daughter experienced actual violence in the four or five months that she dated this guy. I don't know if she did or not. Of course she did that night. But actual violence can be part of these when they start to really get bad. Actual violence is somebody who shoves you really hard, somebody who punches you in the arm or the stomach, someone who kicks you, someone who hits you with something, picks up a lamp and sends it your way, somebody who kicks your cat or dog across the room, somebody who smashes the door trying to get in Because they want to be in right now in the room you're in, or something. But these things are unmistakable actual violence.

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Speaker 3>

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47>02 Now they're followed up by step five, which is what's called convincing apology. Look, I got to tell you something. I don't know. I know I'm not even sure what happened there, because, look, this has never happened to me before. It's never happened. It'll never happen again. I just lost it. I mean, I've had a bad, bad week at work. Um, you know this other guy been there he's been there less time than I have and he gets a promotion. Okay, and then I find out. Oh, with the promotion he also gets better healthcare and he also gets this parking out of their parking lot. I mean, what the heck's that all about? I'm working nights and weekends, this guy leaves at 5.

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Speaker 3>

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47>43 And then you know I'm sorry, it really wasn't about you. I apologize, or you know. Look, you know I had a rough upbringing and you know I just I'm really sorry. You know, there's something you said or something you did. It just triggered me.

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Speaker 3>

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48>03 And then we go back to storybook romance. Look, can't we let's go out and get a nice meal. I'm sorry about your phone. Okay, I'm sorry about your phone. Let's go to the Apple store. I'll get you another phone. They got the iPhone 15. I'll get you that.

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Speaker 3>

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48>21 And all you're thinking, if you are in this relationship, is I want to get back to that first part. I love that storybook romance. I love that fairy tale we were living and all of a sudden poof, you're back in it. Except, this is a cycle. So we go back to the storybook romance and we shift into more isolation. Doesn't really want to see my sister, doesn't really like my dad. Better, keep them apart. More threats of violence. All of a sudden, boom, something just happened. What's that all about? Yikes, better behave myself, more violence, more apologies.

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Speaker 3>

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48>55 You get to the point with this cycle tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. This thing keeps happening. You will get to the point where the convincing apology is actually in the form of I just want peace in this place. I just want him to stop. I just need to be able to breathe again without somebody yelling at me, need to be able to breathe again without somebody yelling at me, and then maybe better, you know, and then fairytale romance has been reduced down to I just want things to be okay. I just oh, my God, you know, I want to help him. He has a lot of problems and that, for a lot of people, is why they stay in for months and years and decades. I just feel like if he can just get over this, if he can just get off the drugs, if he just would stop drinking, if he could just get a job, if he could, just if he could, just if he could, just Yep. That's how those things go on and on.

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Speaker 2>

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49>55 That continuum of behaviors is a recognizable pattern across. Well, again, I did sexual assault and worked with survivors in that space. But we often those lines get so blended because it all starts with before it moves into physical or sexual assault. It starts with exactly what you've described, bill, and I didn't. I want to make sure you get all your points before I jump in.

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Speaker 3>

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50>33 Yeah, I think I've arrived and thanks for letting me go. You can see I should. I guess I'm on the verge of apologizing. I guess I'll. Yeah, I'll apologize, only because I get on a roll with this. I'm so passionate.

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Speaker 3>

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50>47 And honestly, you know, my whole thing is I don't want to see someone else have a situation like we have. So I'm so passionate about this and given the opportunity to talk with a large group of people, like on your podcast and also just to you, dan, which I appreciate you having that opportunity I don't want to miss my chance, you know, because somebody will walk away saying, oh my god, that's what my sister's going through right now.

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Speaker 2>

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51>14 Oh my god, I feel like he's talking about me yeah, well, and and I and I have you know this conversation is important to me for a number of reasons and I didn't share, but I also I didn't share here, but I also have, you know, two grown daughters and the story you've shared, bill, I can't imagine the things that went through your mind at the different phases and and all that you've learned and and what you're sharing now is making an impact. Do you mind if I share that text, um, that you sent me? Would that be okay? I have it right here, you can share.

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Speaker 2>

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51>50 Yes, so um, I mentioned it in in the pre, you know, as I started framing this conversation, but this is the text that Bill sent me just the other day.

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Speaker 2>

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52>01 After someone was listening to when Dating Hurts podcast stories. This came today. Thank you for sharing this story. It saved my daughter's life. She was finally able to leave an abusive relationship after learning about this story. Thank you for the work you do and that's the message that I have for you today, bill, and there is no need to apologize because your story is one captivating.

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Speaker 2>

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52>28 But I think, beyond captivating and you sharing your personal experience, clearly there's with plenty of justification and emotional attachment. You're heavily involved in this. You continue to do that work of sharing that message and that story that I can see and I know is impacting lives, because there's so much you touched on that I see in the world around us and and that's really why I thought this conversation is something that I absolutely had to have and and there's a lot of things I think we could unpack and I'll just touch on them and maybe we could have a follow-up conversation. I'm just going to ask you right here on the podcast because there's things that I think we could unpack about the impact to your family and the trials and tribulations along the way, especially in your relationship with your wife, and what that looked like initially and how you were able to come together and navigate that as a whole, moving forward and then leading into the work that you're doing now. Where is that and what does that look like?

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Speaker 2>

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53>40 We don't have time today to unpack some of those, but I would like to ask two, I think two key questions. Is what come to mind? Sure, to the parents out there who may be starting to see or uncover signs that their child, son or daughter is in an unhealthy relationship, what would be the one thing you'd?

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Speaker 3>

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54>09 tell them right now. So if some of what I've talked about rings true, you know you think, wow, she seems depressed. You know she doesn't seem like herself, seems out of it, or you overhear a phone conversation, or maybe this person's coming to your house, you know, and you're thinking there's something wrong with this. I would say to get in touch with a professional, not just calling up your other friends and people and just kind of like, kind of thinking it through and stuff like that. I'd say, get in touch with somebody. Um, what I always tell people is there are domestic violence agencies everywhere. Get in touch with them. Make an appointment or have a phone conversation. Talk with a counselor okay, if your daughter's 14, that's probably a different conversation from if your daughter's 24. But they have people who handle this for all the different ages. But start to take action steps, because one of the things that's really important here is that and I hate to scare people, but the clock is ticking these relationships do not get better. They don't just go off and resolve themselves. People who are abusive become more abusive. They're loading their toolkit all the time. So get in touch with a local domestic violence agency If you just want to pick up the phone and talk with the national hotline. You can. I've done it.

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Speaker 3>

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55>37 The national domestic violence hotline is 800-799-SAFE. 800-799-safe. Call them up, explain your situation. They're not going to alarm you. They're not like, let's say, it's happening to you. You're listening to this and it happens to be happening to you, whoever you are. They're not going to send a SWAT team to your house. You know they're not going to surround the place. You know they're not. It's anonymous. You know.

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Speaker 3>

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56>05 The key is that for people who have been, who've lost their power and control, the key is to get it back and it's very doable. You will hear people on my podcast, the when Dating Hurts podcast, talk about how they got their power back. The only person who can fix a person who's abused, who's being victimized, is that person herself or his self. Okay, because we haven't talked very much about the fact.

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Speaker 3>

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56>36 The abusive person could be a woman laying this on a guy. It could be a woman on another woman, a guy, it could be a woman on another woman, a guy on another guy. It's, you know, any way you want to spin it, but typically it's men making miserable lives for women. That's typically the way it goes and, by the way. It might be one in three women that this is happening to, but there's only something like two or three percent of men do this, so it's not like one out of three men do this. It's a very small number, it's just they go from one woman to the next. When somebody finally breaks free, moves from California to Florida or whatever they have to do.

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Speaker 1>

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57>12 But yes, you want to take steps.

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Speaker 3>

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57>14 Don't put it off. You know you can call your doctor, you know, and you can say, look, I don't even know who to call. They'll be able to help you. This type of thing has walked through their doors before. But don't sit around weighing the possibilities, or you know, look, I think going to church is great, I do it. You can sit there and pray, but I'll tell you, god helps those who help themselves. You got to do your part. I pray, but I also have a lot of action steps that I do. So, yeah, do something.

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Speaker 2>

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57>46 Now, I appreciate that and you answered. The second question is you know was going to be? What would you tell those who are experiencing this themselves? So thank you for sharing that. I want to share one resource.

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Speaker 3>

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58>00 Go ahead, oh yeah, I, I want to share one resource. Go ahead. Oh yeah, I'm sorry to cut back in. There's one other thing, is this that somebody listening to this can say okay this is very interesting.

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Speaker 3>

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58>09 Gee, I sure feel sorry for this poor guy and his family. That's not what I'm looking for, Right? I don't. This is not about me and the Mitchell family. This is about your family, my family. Our situation is done. It's all about what we're doing now. It's kind of like me saying nobody can hurt us anymore. Okay, you hurt us enough, that's it. We have been hurt enough. So. But what I want people to do I mean this strongly is don't listen to this and say you know what I hear everything you're saying. It makes sense. I feel sorry for people this happens to, but you know I live in a nice neighborhood and this type of thing does not happen here. I'd say to you you don't know what you're talking about. If you asked me this right before this happened to my daughter, I probably would have said the same thing.

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Speaker 3>

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59>01 I'm not some special person who has been imbued with all this wisdom, the wisdom of Solomon or something. This happens everywhere, and there are those who have books out. They'll say you know, what it's hard to believe Happens equally everywhere. It's not just the depressed parts of town, it's not just certain ethnic groups, it happens everywhere. It's not just the depressed parts of town.

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Speaker 2>

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59>23 It's not just certain ethnic groups.

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Speaker 3>

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59>23 It happens everywhere. There is a really big house about two miles from where I live I guess you'd call it a mansion Got a great big pool. It's got over 80 windows in it. I mean it's a great big place. This guy made a lot of money doing what he did His wife. About five or six years after my daughter was killed, his wife knocked on our door, came in and said I'm really so sorry about your daughter. Now her two kids went to school with my two kids at some point in elementary school. But this woman showed up and my wife thought oh, she's here just to say I'm sorry about what happened and that's okay, we can have that conversation. That was part one. Part two was her with a manila envelope pulling out pictures of her bruised body from the last time that her husband beat the living tar out of her and stomped on her, and she had to crawl out of the house with her cell phone and hide under a bush at a neighbor's calling the police.

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Speaker 3>

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1:00>19 It can happen to anybody. So and and here's the thing, if you think, well it's, it's an icky subject. I don't really want to. I don't really want to get my. You know, I don't want to wrap my head around this. This stuff, this stuff sounds awful. Here's what's going to happen.

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Speaker 3>

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1:00>40 If you don't want to pay attention, you don't think it applies to you, then you're going to shut off all possibilities of knowing about it. Okay, so let's say for a minute you don't want to hear about the warning signs and you think, well, I don't know, doesn't apply to us. Well then, that means that if they're happening around you, you'll be blissfully unaware. You know it could be happening. You'll be blissfully unaware. You know it could be happening. There could be a conversation in the next room and it's all those things you would need to know to take action. But you don't know that. You just think, eh, they just don't get along. My daughter, about a month before she was killed by this guy, said to my wife my wife had said well, tell me about this guy, what's that all about?

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Speaker 4>

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1:01>26 And my daughter said well, mom, it's not the perfect relationship.

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Speaker 3>

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1:01>28 Now my wife took that like anybody would. Any mom would think guess this relationship's not going to last long.

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Speaker 2>

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1:01>34 Sure.

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Speaker 3>

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1:01>35 It's going to the next thing. Kristen had dated before. She'll date again, knowing what I know. Now somebody says, well, it's not the perfect relationship. I'd say, well, what is the perfect relationship? Or well, what is it about the relationship you don't think is so good? You'd follow it up. But I wouldn't have followed it up back then, 2005. But I'll tell you, if I heard that today I'd be asking some questions very gently. Yes, you're not trying to be an interrogator, but you want to know more.

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Speaker 2>

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1:02>08 Absolutely Uncover what's not being said, and I found that the more you empower someone by asking questions like that, they're willing to share what's really happening behind the scenes. To some extent, now, that's what I was going to say. There is a resource, before we wrap up, that I want to share, because a friend of mine introduced me a few years ago. I have a personal relationship with this woman and a personal professional relationship with this woman and a personal professional relationship, and she was working on a project that has now, um, it's just grown tremendously. So, for people who feel like one, no, no one would listen to my story. Yes, first of all, yes, they will, um, just talk to somebody.

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Speaker 2>

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1:02>57 But I know from my world and my experience that sometimes there are people who don't feel like they can say anything or they're not ready yet to say something.

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Speaker 2>

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1:03>08 So there's a resource called Victim's Voice. You can find it victimsvoiceapp, and that is a place where you can go and start to document the things that are happening to you and, should you choose, later can be used as evidence in a court or to present to law enforcement. You know when, when, that time, if that time arrives that you choose to make, that you have that documentation of the things, the statements, all the pieces. I would encourage you that if you're in that place, you're experiencing domestic or sexual violence and you are not ready to share that with anyone, document it. Just start documenting because when the time comes, it will be something that will help shift the narrative and the conversation, not just for you, but for anyone else who may be experiencing this bill. I am so grateful that we were able to come together and have this conversation and for you, sharing your story, your advice and the work that you're doing to impact lives Yep.

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Speaker 3>

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1:04>19 Thank you for saying, thank you for saying all that that you're doing to impact lives. Yep, thank you for saying all that. You know. I think one good thought that I have in my head is that the way I approach all of this is I'm going to keep doing it until I. I'll keep doing it until nobody listens. I guess I'll put it that way and the way it's working is more and more people are listening. So you know I've got, I know what I do for a living, so to speak, is this.

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Speaker 3>

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1:04>44 The other thing is that there is no scoreboard. You know, do I think we're saving lives? I guess so. Do I think we're improving lives Absolutely, but there is no scoreboard, and I think that's good. I think, if you, in my case, if I play as well as I can play and never look back at the scoreboard or think about it, that's the way to go. Just play your best game. You know, give the speeches, do the podcast, talk with people like you today, dan, and your audience. You know these are opportunities, and the one thing I do know is someone's going to hear something and they're going to take action and someone's life is going to get a lot better soon.

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Speaker 2>

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1:05>26 Yeah, that's certainly impactful. I want to remind people that they can find your podcast when Dating Hurts. Wherever you listen to podcasts. You can go to the website whendatinghurtscom or you can contact Bill directly at billmitchelldv at outlookcom, and I just want to encourage you, whether you were able to take a message from this conversation or not, to share this podcast episode with someone in your world, indirectly or directly. So thanks for tuning in today and we'll see you next time.

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1:05>-----END THE ECHOES OF A DAUGHTER'S MEMORY FUELING THE FIGHT FOR AWARENESS-----